Photo: Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post via Getty Images
Before Ben Carson was a hero to Tea Partiers, he was a hero to African-Americans—nowhere more so than in his adopted hometown of Baltimore. When he wasn't in the operating room at Johns Hopkins, Carson, a retired Pediatric neurosurgeon, could often be found at Baltimore inner-city schools telling the remarkable story of how he rose from dire poverty to become a world-renowned doctor. He waseven immortalized in an episode of The Wire. Earlier today, Carson—who is expected to officially announce that he's running for president next Monday—spoke to me about the unrest in Baltimore. A condensed and edited transcript of our conversation is below.
What's your reaction to what's going on in Baltimore right now?
Obviously I'm sad to see what's going on there. I recognize that people are angry because they feel that they're not getting a full explanation of what occurred under suspicious circumstances, but I can speak from experience that reacting out of anger seldom leads to anything helpful. And these kinds of reactions will only increase the antagonism between police and communities throughout the country and result in militarization and more aggression. These are not helpful things.
Obviously I'm sad to see what's going on there. I recognize that people are angry because they feel that they're not getting a full explanation of what occurred under suspicious circumstances, but I can speak from experience that reacting out of anger seldom leads to anything helpful. And these kinds of reactions will only increase the antagonism between police and communities throughout the country and result in militarization and more aggression. These are not helpful things.
I spent 36 years in Baltimore and had a lot of interactions with the police there, in the emergency rooms and lots of other places, and the vast majority are wonderful, very fine people. You certainly can't characterize all policemen by what happens in an incident like this. Perhaps something bad was done. I don't think there's any way it's going to be swept under the rug. And people just have to realize that it takes time. And the other thing is you look in these neighborhoods, a lot of those people have spent their whole lives building up their businesses, and to see them destroyed in a matter of minutes, frequently by outside agitators who have no concern whatsoever for the neighborhood or for the people there. I would just ask people not to let themselves be so easily manipulated and to have your future destroyed in a matter of minutes. And this is a message that really should be coming from the parents, the grandparents, and the guardians.
What about the politicians in Baltimore? What do you think of their response so far?
There are variable responses. There are some who feel that things have been done too slowly. But there's always going to be Monday morning quarterbacking. There's no question that people need to be thinking, when you have an incident like this, at a time of hyper-sensitivity that we live in right now, you need to be prepared for it, you need to actually think about these things ahead of time. What are you going to do? How are you going to be prepared? The other things is, leadership needs to be having conversations with the community, with the young people, in anticipation of problems occurring, and letting them know that destroying your own neighborhood, destroying the hard work of people who are trying to make a living, is not in any way going to speed up or improve what you perceive as injustice.
There are variable responses. There are some who feel that things have been done too slowly. But there's always going to be Monday morning quarterbacking. There's no question that people need to be thinking, when you have an incident like this, at a time of hyper-sensitivity that we live in right now, you need to be prepared for it, you need to actually think about these things ahead of time. What are you going to do? How are you going to be prepared? The other things is, leadership needs to be having conversations with the community, with the young people, in anticipation of problems occurring, and letting them know that destroying your own neighborhood, destroying the hard work of people who are trying to make a living, is not in any way going to speed up or improve what you perceive as injustice.
You said earlier that you had a lot of experiences with police in Baltimore. Did you ever have any bad experiences with police in Baltimore?
No. No I didn't.
No. No I didn't.
Did you see the Baltimore Sun investigation from last year into police brutality that reported that the city has $5.7 million in lawsuit settlements for excessive force?
I'm familiar with the large number of suits and payouts, yes.
I'm familiar with the large number of suits and payouts, yes.
Do you think that's indicative of a larger problem?
It's certainly indicative of some problems. In no way am I saying that all the police are righteous, by no stretch of the imagination. And clearly we need to be dealing with that. But recognize that we're dealing with a people problem. When you look at the Baltimore police force, it's about as diverse as any police force you're going to find in a big city. There may even be more minorities on that police force than there are non-minorities. The point being that inappropriate behavior comes in all colors, it's not specific. And just because it comes by one color or another color doesn't mean it should be ignored. It needs to be dealt with.
It's certainly indicative of some problems. In no way am I saying that all the police are righteous, by no stretch of the imagination. And clearly we need to be dealing with that. But recognize that we're dealing with a people problem. When you look at the Baltimore police force, it's about as diverse as any police force you're going to find in a big city. There may even be more minorities on that police force than there are non-minorities. The point being that inappropriate behavior comes in all colors, it's not specific. And just because it comes by one color or another color doesn't mean it should be ignored. It needs to be dealt with.
We need to get to the bottom of any problems of discrimination. But the larger issue here is, how do you react when something is wrong? If you have an unpleasant experience with a plumber, do you go out and declare a war on all plumbers? Or teachers or doctors? Of course not. And it makes no sense to do that with police either.
I saw that Al Sharpton was going to Baltimore. Do you think that's helpful or not helpful?
It certainly doesn't surprise me. I guess we'll determine whether it's helpful based on what he says.
It certainly doesn't surprise me. I guess we'll determine whether it's helpful based on what he says.
What would you like to see him say?
I would like to see him talk about the fact there are ways to redress grievances that are appropriate, and there are ways that are inappropriate. And destroying the lives of your fellow citizens is probably not an appropriate way to deal with it. And perhaps he can offer some constructive ways that people can deal with this.
I would like to see him talk about the fact there are ways to redress grievances that are appropriate, and there are ways that are inappropriate. And destroying the lives of your fellow citizens is probably not an appropriate way to deal with it. And perhaps he can offer some constructive ways that people can deal with this.
What are those constructive ways? Assuming these riots will be over at some point, what should happen after that? What are the constructive ways to address what seems to be a problem?
Clearly the only way that you're ever going to resolve grievances is to engage in conversations, civil conversations. Laying out what your grievances are, what your perception is of what the other side is doing, and having each side do that, and very often when you're having those kinds of discussions, you're able to see that you're not as far apart from each other as you actually think you are. The other thing is, if there are specific grievances in terms of police actions, discuss those, bring out the facts and ask the city officials to help resolve these issues.
Clearly the only way that you're ever going to resolve grievances is to engage in conversations, civil conversations. Laying out what your grievances are, what your perception is of what the other side is doing, and having each side do that, and very often when you're having those kinds of discussions, you're able to see that you're not as far apart from each other as you actually think you are. The other thing is, if there are specific grievances in terms of police actions, discuss those, bring out the facts and ask the city officials to help resolve these issues.
Do you think the system worked in the case of Eric Garner, the black man who died in Staten Island last year after police arrested him and placed him in a chokehold?
In what sense? It certainly brought a lot of things to light. It was very sad that two policemen lost their lives [in an attack thought to be retaliatory], that property was destroyed, so in that sense it did not work in an appropriate way. But hopefully all of these things lead to the gathering of knowledge that will help us to be able to resolve these problems. In South Carolina [where an unarmed black man was shot and killed following a traffic stop], obviously that was a travesty. You can't indict the whole police department on the basis of a rogue cop who committed a murder. And they acted swiftly and that was an appropriate response.
In what sense? It certainly brought a lot of things to light. It was very sad that two policemen lost their lives [in an attack thought to be retaliatory], that property was destroyed, so in that sense it did not work in an appropriate way. But hopefully all of these things lead to the gathering of knowledge that will help us to be able to resolve these problems. In South Carolina [where an unarmed black man was shot and killed following a traffic stop], obviously that was a travesty. You can't indict the whole police department on the basis of a rogue cop who committed a murder. And they acted swiftly and that was an appropriate response.
In the Eric Garner case, I meant that there was no indictment. Some people were upset about that, that there was incident caught on videotape, and no one actually is indicted for it. Is that an instance of the system working, the fact that there was no indictment?
I think sometimes the outcome may not be what everybody wants it to be. Some people say whether it was accidental or not, it certainly appears that it was accidental, but whether it was or not, heads should roll, and that's the way some people feel. And I understand that feeling. But at some point we have to be objective. There was little in the way of objectivity in Ferguson, even after the evidence became very, very clear. And so a lot of what's going on really needs a calming influence by leadership to really put things in perspective for people, so that raw emotions are not stirred and actions are not taken on the basis of raw emotions as opposed to facts.
I think sometimes the outcome may not be what everybody wants it to be. Some people say whether it was accidental or not, it certainly appears that it was accidental, but whether it was or not, heads should roll, and that's the way some people feel. And I understand that feeling. But at some point we have to be objective. There was little in the way of objectivity in Ferguson, even after the evidence became very, very clear. And so a lot of what's going on really needs a calming influence by leadership to really put things in perspective for people, so that raw emotions are not stirred and actions are not taken on the basis of raw emotions as opposed to facts.
Is there anything you'd like to see President Obama do in response to what's happening in Baltimore?
I would love for him to come out and say to not only the Baltimore community but to communities across the nation that we cannot judge our police departments by incidents that sometimes do not appear to portray justice. Let the system ferret those things out, and I would like for him to say we will be looking into the situation if it is not apparent that justice has been served, but let's give the system a chance to work. And let us definitely not be destroying our own neighborhoods. Let's think about those people who have put so much time and effort into building a business and who actually improve the quality of your life so that you don't have to go ten miles out of the way to get a prescription filled. He needs to be putting that into perspective for people.
I would love for him to come out and say to not only the Baltimore community but to communities across the nation that we cannot judge our police departments by incidents that sometimes do not appear to portray justice. Let the system ferret those things out, and I would like for him to say we will be looking into the situation if it is not apparent that justice has been served, but let's give the system a chance to work. And let us definitely not be destroying our own neighborhoods. Let's think about those people who have put so much time and effort into building a business and who actually improve the quality of your life so that you don't have to go ten miles out of the way to get a prescription filled. He needs to be putting that into perspective for people.
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